photo things: fernando zelaya, 'cademy

The first episode of photo things, a podcast devoted to conversations with emerging, independent photography book publishers in New York City

Hi all,

I’m excited to announce the beginning of photo things, a podcast focused on conversations with today’s independent photography book publishers based across New York City. The podcast will be available on Apple Podcasts and my Substack. I’ve pasted a transcript below, as well.

I sat down with Fernando Zelaya, co-founder of 'cademy. We talked about 'cademy's origins, sharing the wheel, publishing for the first time, Fernando's hardcore background, and current mentors. Thank you Fernando for taking the time to sit down with me and take a chance on this project. Please go support him and his colleagues over at ‘cademy. Hope you enjoy and stay tuned for future episodes!

fernando zelaya, ’cademy

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Rainer Turim: Alright, this is photo books, a podcast about emerging independent photo book publishers. Today's episode is with my friend Fernando Zelaya, co-founder of ‘cademy, a publishing house that was started you would say in 2019, 2020?

Fernando Zelaya: First thing we published was in 2021, but we had been working on laying the foundation since about 2020. And we'd known each other since 2018, 2019.

RT: Could you speak about the origins of ‘cademy and how you came together?

FZ: For sure, so I co-founded ‘cademy with my two very close friends, Nick Sansone and Shao-Feng Hsu, who are also photographers. And we met at the International Center of Photography’s One-Year Photography Certificate Program in Creative Practices and, for whatever reason I'm not entirely sure how we kind of came together, but we gravitated towards each other constantly in terms of collaborating. We would spend time in studios kind of working with each other, sequencing each other's work. And at some point we had learned how make books by hand. ICP used to have these, I don't know if they still do 'em but they would have these late nights where one year certificate students were able to stay in the studios till I think about like 2:00 AM. And so we were just kind of sitting in these studios binding books by hand, making hardcover books and talking about the love of just kind of the practice of making books. I can't remember exactly if we might have talked about potentially doing something in this capacity, but we, after we graduated, we kept in touch. We continued to collaborate and show each other work. And it was during the pandemic in that initial lockdown period that we were hosting weekly Zoom meetings with each other and that was just as a, as a way to stay busy during this time that I definitely needed that structure, a little bit of having someone to show work to every week. And through that, I can't remember who brought it up or how it started, but we decided to put this shit that we were working on out ourselves. I think the thinking was that instead of waiting for someone to pick it up or waiting for interest to spark, in an external capacity, we were like, why not just do it ourselves? And that's how we started. 

RT: Cool. Before you started the certificate program at ICP, can you speak about your relationship to photography books? You said that during the program, you and your friends showed interest in making books, but before then, were you a collector of books?

FZ: Before doing the ICP program, I can't recall really knowing too much about the world of photo books. I think I had more of an interest in like physical formats for things. I come from a sort of hardcore/punk music background, and so I had an interest in collecting CDs and then after collecting CDs, I was collecting records. And so I had this fascination with physical manifestations of these things. I think when I got to ICP and I started to get exposed to this wider world of. It was, again, a physical manifestation of this art. I think it clicked for me instantly. I think I was just like, okay, this is exactly what I was like looking for.

A little bit about my background before ICP and during ICP, I got my BFA at St. John's University. Photo majors do their junior year at ICP. And so I remember really being sort of unsure of where my interests lied in my freshman and sophomore year. I was just making things. I was making photographs and not really sure where they would live. And so coming into this or coming to realize that there was this world and a house and through the photo book everything just started.

RT: What was your introduction to photography books at that time? 

FZ: At St. John's, not as much. I remember being exposed to some, I'd have the professors at St. John's bring stuff in, but I don't know for what reason. It never clicked to me. And to be fair, there was never anything really dedicated to photo books. My photo I and photo II classes were mostly learning, quote unquote, about composition, aperture, shutter speed, ISO, learning how to print in the dark room and process film, but there was never anything really dedicated to the structure of photo books, the history of photo books versus ICP. We live in a world where the practice of making books is a little bit more, probably the most accessible way to experience books. And so the ICP program I was able to tap into that resource. 

RT: Was there a certain publishing house or photo book that made you decide— because so often, so many photographers might have an interest or ambition to make a photography book, and they go to a pay to print service. They might spend the money and get a book that will be a catalog of their works, but they won't have had the physical practice of book binding experience, laying out your images, making an edit.There's something that's kind of robbed from that practice when you use a pay to print service. Can you talk about what made you so interested in that physical practice, and what book inspired that?

FZ: Yeah, the first thing that I ever came across that sparked an interest in treating the act of making a book more intentionally, I guess, was a book who they, they no longer are around in this capacity, but Candor Arts they published a book called A Lick and a Promise (2017) by Sara J. Winston. It's a fantastic book. I think it might have been at AIPAD 2019, where I came across their table and saw this book and when they told me that they produced everything by hand. It kind of blew my mind. I think that's where I started to think about in flipping through this book, I started to think about the potential for thinking about it more than just as a way to put pictures into a case and that's how it lived. I was awakened to a little bit more of the intentionality of binding. The intentionality of material and materiality as something that was a part of the work and not just something that was a byproduct of its vessel.

RT: That's so interesting that you mention Sara J. Winston, because that's my professor and faculty at Bard. I think they're coming out with a new book with her as well. I just watched this Photoville panel with Oriana Koren and Matthew Austin from For the Birds Trapped in Airports (Published under Candor Collective, f.k.a. Candor Arts) were speaking about the new cohort for 2024-2025, and Sara is on it. 

FZ: Oh, sick. Nice. That's exciting to hear. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

RT: Could you speak now— transitioning to the artists that you work with— I know after looking at your list of publications, that the first three books were your founding members’ work. And then you went on curate a list of photographers to be included?

FZ: We put out the first three books of our own work. And that was actually a way for us to get familiar with or to really figure out— I guess I should say, the foundation for what this was gonna be. Because we knew fairly early on that we wanted to invite other artists to publish. We didn't want it to just be ourselves. We wanted to really create a platform for others and also to extend this practice of collaboration to others, because I know how hard it might feel for someone that isn't familiar with printing a hundred copies of a book, marketing it, quote unquote, distributing it and actually getting rid of the books. We felt that that initial run of our books was a trial run. Then we extended an invitation to our good friends, Val Schnack, Paola Martínez Fiterre, and to Cheney Orr. We met at ICP, we graduated together and Val was the following year. We just kind of pulled names that we were interested in work that we were familiar with, and these three names popped up. I think for no other reason other than just being really big admirers of the work. We knew their capacity for being— especially like Cheney who was a little bit part of the original ‘cademy family. He was part of those late night book making sessions, for example. we just extended this invitation. We learned a lot through that and I thought it was important for us also to publish women photographers. That was really important for that run. And we're definitely thinking about that for the future. There's no particular kind of criteria that we're looking at as far as the curation. I think it's just sourced most of the things that we're aware of, things that we know don't have a home, quote unquote.

RT: Could you speak about your latest book with Alex Morel, which seems to be a departure from the kind of saddle stitch, zine format? You're now going for a perfect bound format, traditional book format.

FZ: So that wasn't a decision made at the beginning. That was something that happened a little bit more organically through the process of sitting with Alex and editing the work. We, I think, originally planned to make something saddle stitched. I think there was even talks of making like a two book set.

But I think at some point we had in, in the midst of editing and sequencing, we had a lot of trouble feeling that the saddle stitch was doing the work justice. Some context on the work is that Alex had been photographing his family, his close friends and sort of peripheral members of his circle since the 90s.

RT: Is this in New York?

FZ: The work spans the Dominican Republic, Haiti, New York, New Jersey. I think there's even an image that was made in Montreal. So it's a little bit all over the place and it really spans a great deal in distance physical distance as well as time.

I think were really struggling to confine this to 40 pages, which then led us to make that call. We didn't want to cut it short, but we also were aware of not making it too long. We felt that this was a good time to make that jump from something saddle stitch zine format to something a little bit more substantial. 

RT: No, it definitely conveys a substantial volume of work.

FZ: I mean, it's the sort of thing where I think we're working with probably close to like 300 images, and he is a prolific photographer. He's the type of guy that always has a camera around the shoulder. We really felt that it needed a form that did it justice, or did the work justice. 

RT: Could you speak about when you meet an artist that you want to work with, what you see as your role or responsibility? You can't speak for the other co-founders, but for your position, do you see yourself as someone that's making a book as a tribute to the artist's work? Are you making edit of what they have or are you really giving them the steering wheel of the book? 

FZ: So, that actually varies. I found everyone works a little bit differently and everybody also has different capacities for their experience with the process of making books. For example Alex was my professor at St. John's and putting out this work was a huge honor. But I think knowing that he had a little bit more experience, a little bit different stature than us, we weren't sure how the editing. the sequencing and the making of the thing was gonna pan out.

But he ended up being very sort of— I don't wanna say hands off, but he really let us really lead the way and he was able to kind of dance with us. You know, what I mean? I think that really showed in the fact that originally the work was made black and white and we had a lot of trouble figuring out how to implement the color images and make the transition seem seamless. Just as an idea, we were like, “Would you be open to converting the color images to black and white?” And he was all for it. He said, “We'll give it a shot and see how it turns out.” And once they were converted into black and white, once we started putting them into the sequence again, it just clicked. Eerything just started to flow together in ways that we wanted them originally to. So that was one of the ways where that collaboration aspect is really huge for us— where being open to suggestion and being open to play and being open spontaneity like that really, makes the process fun.

But I think another book, like Cheney's book that we put out last year, he was way more hands on and that book is very design-y— I don't wanna say design-y. Maybe a better word would be it feels very collage-y if that makes sense— where he's kind of placing things on top of each other.

RT: Could you speak a little bit more about the content? Is it family photos or an archive?

FZ: Cheney's book is a kind of a road trip book. in 2019, him and his girlfriend and their dog moved from Brooklyn to Arizona, and they drove all the way and then they ended up moving from Arizona back out east to Indiana. That book chronicles those two and a half or so years in which they moved houses a couple times. I think the dog passed away on the trip, pandemic happened. It's a book about this tumultuous upheaval. Huge transition loss. So that book, he really wanted it to feel that way. There's a lot of different formats in which the images lay, the images are collaged. There's a lot of kind of scrappy writing. A lot of handmade elements. He was very hands on with that, and he really took the lead. And so for us it was more so a way of just guiding, rather than being the the ones that laid it out.

RT: And this is, for most of the artists, their first time being published?

FZ: In a way of a book being produced in an edition, yeah. Which has been, I think, the most gratifying part for me with Val, Paolo, and Cheney. They were the first times we published other people's work, and it was the first time they were getting published in this capacity. We launched Val and Paolo at at the ICP PhotoBook Fest in 2022, and that was the first time that they saw them printed bound. They were geeked. And it was really emotional for me. I think that's what really makes the whole thing worth it.

RT: How long is it usually from the initiative to connect with an artist to the final release usually? 

FZ: We are operating in on timelines that are about, I'd say about six months. I think part of our mission when we started was to treat this as a way to make work and get it out without being super precious about it, which is why things early on took on the form of, like the zine. We wanted to marry the zine with something a little bit more intentional, informal.

We try to treat things as we're not making magnum opus, but rather something that really conveys a certain type of energy that the zine, I felt, was a good vessel for. The process goes a little something like we reach out and we figure out what the work is, and then we'll start editing and sequencing, and that takes up about, if we're working on a, on a timeline of about five months, that takes about three months of the process. Once we start to get a foundation for the sequence, we start to play on with the design. And then that will take the last fourth month and then that fifth month is pretty much dedicated to production.

RT: And for printing, are you and your co-founders all working on production together, or is there one person that takes the lead? 

FZ: It's kind of funny how things ended up panning out because all three of us have found our roles through our interests. I take the lead on production. I work with the file management, the conversations with the printers, budgeting, thinking about the materiality of it, what's the paper gonna be printed on— how’s it gonna be printed. I take the lead on that. Nick, he ends up taking the lead on some of the more promotional material. He has a better mind for the marketing aspect, branding. And Shao, he has the brains. He has a little bit more of that conceptual brain. He usually is taking the lead on the editing and sequencing sessions. It was just really fortunate how we ended up falling into our rules.

RT: You have all the bases covered between the three of you.

FZ: It is a blessing. But there is a little bit of overlap where because it is such a small operation and I think that’s one of the biggest struggles for publishers at our scale, which is usually a situation where artists making things for artists. I think the biggest struggle is time management and balancing schedules and deadlines. We find that there's a lot of overlap between when someone can be in a meeting and when someone can’t— when sometimes one of us has to take on another task. It's a lot of balancing and juggling, but I think that's part of the fun is the flexibility of being able to do that sort of stuff. 

RT: I just have two more questions. The first one would be how does bookmaking, and also because you seem to be specializing in the production, how does that inform your own photography practice?

FZ: I've been thinking a lot about that and about my own practice and my own image making. It's kind of funny because I feel that I actually enjoy being on the publisher side more than I enjoy being on the image making side. And I don't know if that's a phase or not, or if I'll find a groove again for being the artist. And that being said, I do still make pictures and I'll make book maquettes, small zines and stuff like that, but I find that I find a little bit more joy— maybe joy isn't the right word. I find the process of working with someone else and getting their vision to come to life and me being someone that is able to push that along, and make that happen, is incredibly rewarding.

If anything, it's made me appreciate that practice, and trying to find a way to make that a living is constantly on my mind. Talking to other people about their work and thinking about people's works helps me when I'm out making images, thinking about my work in that same way. Like, why did I suggest this thing to someone else? And so now I'm gonna bring that into my practice and, and try to see if I can implement that. 

RT: Are you constantly thinking about how it might translate into a book format, or are you thinking in terms of an exhibition or are you even processing what the vehicle will be for the prints if they are later on?

FZ: I try not to think too hard about the final product while I'm working on it. I think because for me, I start to think too much about that instead of just being open to whatever the world's possibilities are. But I am, generally speaking, I am thinking about the pictures I'm making to end up in a book, in whatever capacity that may be. I do think it's helpful though to understand where your strengths lie, and in terms of where you want your work to live. That influences a little bit how you're making work, and why you're making work. But like I said, I try not to let it dictate, but rather, I think guiding and sort of gently pushing things in a certain way is helpful for me.

RT: And then, off that, which is my final question— is there any publishers that are gently pushing you along? Is there any, publishing houses or self-published artists that are giving you inspiration and motivation to be making work in your photography and also more specifically in ‘cademy?

FZ: There's an endless list of inspiration, but I think as far as publishers go, there are definitely some at the top of my head. The biggest ones probably being T.I.S. Everything that they put out is a knockout, and Deadbeat Club. Coincidentally, those two publishers I know Clint Woodside and Nelson Chan specifically, are also coming from a hardcore/punk background. That influences their practice in publishing. That was a big inspiration in both seeing people like me, quote unquote be successful artists and photographers, but also to treat this in that same way or treat ‘cademy in that same way. Those are two probably the biggest ones for inspirations. In that way, Void out in Greece. Everything they put out is fucking amazing. Their design is constantly on point and their curation of the work is also phenomenal. And I would say MACK. I'd be confident in calling them top dog in this little niche world. Just the names that they put out and, but also it isn't really just the names. Their curation of the work feels very focused. And then, Morgan Crowcroft-Brown, her design work and production, really ties everything together. You look at the list of names that they've published, and I think it might be easy to be like, “They're just playing off the big names.” But they also publish people for the first time. They used to do the MACK First Book Award which a lot of great work has come out of that. I think those are probably some of the the main inspirations for me.

RT: I remember when we were over at Printed Matter and you recommended to me Morgan's podcast episode with Brad Feuerhelm over at Nearest Truth, and how wonderful it was to hear about someone who wasn't necessarily the public eye of MACK— but someone who's on the inside, making all the design decisions, who is hands on with the book. Learning about it from that perspective was super rewarding. 

FZ: Definitely, one of the biggest things that I've realized since graduating school is that there is so much room for other roles in photography and not just being a photographer. Thinking about people like Morgan, people like Nelson Chan and thinking about the role of the production manager or designer or publisher, and you even think about people that fix cameras.

There is such a vast need for all different kinds of interests. I think learning about people like that is incredibly important and valuable, especially for— I'm 24, so I don't want to say for younger photographers, but for me that was a huge revelation— was finding that I didn't need to be the photographer to be successful. It was really about finding your lane and really being passionate about that lane. Cause then that there's an ecosystem.

RT: The two can coexist. That's also what I'm learning too now, just after being a year out from school, is that my interest in being a photographer can also coexist with my interest in being a curator, editor or writer. There’s already these lanes, but they merge together and there's not one set rule for how people should operate. It’s great to see your work as an example of that. Thank you so much for speaking with me.

FZ: Yeah, dude. Thank you for having me. It was an honor. I'm always happy to ramble.